Comments on: Some key “reform” events in the American church http://inandfor.wordpress.com/2009/04/21/some-key-reform-events-in-the-american-church/ reflections on following Jesus Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:58:24 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: prin http://inandfor.wordpress.com/2009/04/21/some-key-reform-events-in-the-american-church/#comment-74 prin Thu, 30 Apr 2009 01:08:52 +0000 http://inandfor.wordpress.com/?p=143#comment-74 I'm reading The Reason For God right now. I'm not too far along in it, but I like it so far. I can see though how it might not reach some of the non-believers though. So far, from what I've read, some parts are explained really logically (like how explanation eventually explains itself away) whereas other parts rest too heavily on faith, which for non-believers is not there. For example, in the chapter on suffering, he basically explains that God allows suffering because suffering now, in this world, means greater glory later because we'll appreciate it more. A non-believer would totally shut down at that. IMO, Tyler's version was stronger (in one of the more recent sermons) at explaining it to non-believers. He said (paraphrased, of course) that the traumas we suffer here help us to help those who go through it also. We build community through our empathy for each other and from shared experiences. In the end, even in this life, suffering can lead to great things- like growth, compassion and community. Without ever feeling betrayed, we'd never have to learn to forgive. Anyway, I'll keep reading for now. :D As for abortion, up here girls can get abortions at 14 without their parents finding out. And because of universal health care, they're free too. I don't think legislation is the answer. Take away abortion clinics and women will just end up bleeding out because of the "coat hanger method". Education is where it's at. And not just sex ed. Kids need to be taught the value of their person. That's something I was never taught. I was never taught that sex, despite being so casual in the media and among peers, was a big deal. I was never taught that it was something of value, something about my core person that I would share. Just my two cents... I’m reading The Reason For God right now. I’m not too far along in it, but I like it so far. I can see though how it might not reach some of the non-believers though. So far, from what I’ve read, some parts are explained really logically (like how explanation eventually explains itself away) whereas other parts rest too heavily on faith, which for non-believers is not there. For example, in the chapter on suffering, he basically explains that God allows suffering because suffering now, in this world, means greater glory later because we’ll appreciate it more. A non-believer would totally shut down at that. IMO, Tyler’s version was stronger (in one of the more recent sermons) at explaining it to non-believers. He said (paraphrased, of course) that the traumas we suffer here help us to help those who go through it also. We build community through our empathy for each other and from shared experiences. In the end, even in this life, suffering can lead to great things- like growth, compassion and community.

Without ever feeling betrayed, we’d never have to learn to forgive.

Anyway, I’ll keep reading for now. :D

As for abortion, up here girls can get abortions at 14 without their parents finding out. And because of universal health care, they’re free too. I don’t think legislation is the answer. Take away abortion clinics and women will just end up bleeding out because of the “coat hanger method”. Education is where it’s at. And not just sex ed. Kids need to be taught the value of their person. That’s something I was never taught. I was never taught that sex, despite being so casual in the media and among peers, was a big deal. I was never taught that it was something of value, something about my core person that I would share. Just my two cents…

]]> By: Rob Davis http://inandfor.wordpress.com/2009/04/21/some-key-reform-events-in-the-american-church/#comment-67 Rob Davis Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:44:41 +0000 http://inandfor.wordpress.com/?p=143#comment-67 I definitely think that there is a standard biblical "theme" that God defends the defenseless, cares for the fatherless, the orphan, the widow, the outcast, etc. But, while aborted image-bearers of God are definitely part of that, they are not the depth of that. What about children being raised in abusive homes? What about people who committed crimes years ago but have been paralyzed by the system because of it? What about those of us who made terrible financial decisions when we were young? And on and on. If we're going to take a stand against abortion, then we also need to spend the time to figure out who in our society is feeling the weight of the powers that are opposed to the Kingdom of God. I hesitate to personally label myself a Calvinist. I'm not sure what that means anymore, and I do think there is a very real danger in any "-ism" becoming an idol (are we Paulists or Apollosists?). My reason for putting this "event" in the list is mainly to compare what is becoming "mainstream evangelicalism" versus what was mainstream even 5-10 years ago. Again, my perspective is pretty narrow, but it seems like the loudest voices are more frequently being heard from these circles rather than what defined things in the past. I personally would much rather our version of Christianity be known for its emphasis on God's sovereignty and holistic cultural transformation (what the best of "Calvinism" seems to represent) than Left Behind, charismaniacs, and American political conservatism. There definitely are, still, a lot of Calvinists who would unapologetically define themselves as Republicans, but those aren't the loudest voices that I seem to hear. I need to read more about the ECUSA because I am pretty clueless about that at this point. I definitely think that there is a standard biblical “theme” that God defends the defenseless, cares for the fatherless, the orphan, the widow, the outcast, etc. But, while aborted image-bearers of God are definitely part of that, they are not the depth of that. What about children being raised in abusive homes? What about people who committed crimes years ago but have been paralyzed by the system because of it? What about those of us who made terrible financial decisions when we were young? And on and on. If we’re going to take a stand against abortion, then we also need to spend the time to figure out who in our society is feeling the weight of the powers that are opposed to the Kingdom of God.

I hesitate to personally label myself a Calvinist. I’m not sure what that means anymore, and I do think there is a very real danger in any “-ism” becoming an idol (are we Paulists or Apollosists?). My reason for putting this “event” in the list is mainly to compare what is becoming “mainstream evangelicalism” versus what was mainstream even 5-10 years ago. Again, my perspective is pretty narrow, but it seems like the loudest voices are more frequently being heard from these circles rather than what defined things in the past. I personally would much rather our version of Christianity be known for its emphasis on God’s sovereignty and holistic cultural transformation (what the best of “Calvinism” seems to represent) than Left Behind, charismaniacs, and American political conservatism. There definitely are, still, a lot of Calvinists who would unapologetically define themselves as Republicans, but those aren’t the loudest voices that I seem to hear.

I need to read more about the ECUSA because I am pretty clueless about that at this point.

]]> By: anglopressy http://inandfor.wordpress.com/2009/04/21/some-key-reform-events-in-the-american-church/#comment-66 anglopressy Thu, 23 Apr 2009 02:47:44 +0000 http://inandfor.wordpress.com/?p=143#comment-66 I think there are much better approaches to abortion than that the unborn are innocent. I think this is something that protestants need to take a cue from the catholics on. The Roman Catholic church has taken aim at all elements of the "culture of death". This means war, abortion, abusive economics and the list goes on. The issue here is the kingdom of God, not innocence. As for the new Calvinism, I think that's code for this is becoming popular whereas it wasn't before. There may be a resurgence in the popularity of a strand of Calvinism, but this is not what Calvin wrote or taught. It didn't take long into the founding of the United States for calvinism to adapt itself to our form of republicanism. I'd say that's still the case; sixteenth century calvinists were interested in all of society being affected by their theology. That can not be the case anymore in the US. That form of state church died out pretty early on. I think that, when the smoke clears, the situation between the ECUSA and the worldwide Anglican Communion will be pretty informative. Who's going to feel alienated and break away? Will it be the conservatives or the liberals? As far as I know, right now things are okay, but there are still a lot of hurt feelings. I think there are much better approaches to abortion than that the unborn are innocent. I think this is something that protestants need to take a cue from the catholics on. The Roman Catholic church has taken aim at all elements of the “culture of death”. This means war, abortion, abusive economics and the list goes on. The issue here is the kingdom of God, not innocence.

As for the new Calvinism, I think that’s code for this is becoming popular whereas it wasn’t before. There may be a resurgence in the popularity of a strand of Calvinism, but this is not what Calvin wrote or taught. It didn’t take long into the founding of the United States for calvinism to adapt itself to our form of republicanism. I’d say that’s still the case; sixteenth century calvinists were interested in all of society being affected by their theology. That can not be the case anymore in the US. That form of state church died out pretty early on.

I think that, when the smoke clears, the situation between the ECUSA and the worldwide Anglican Communion will be pretty informative. Who’s going to feel alienated and break away? Will it be the conservatives or the liberals? As far as I know, right now things are okay, but there are still a lot of hurt feelings.

]]> By: John Meche http://inandfor.wordpress.com/2009/04/21/some-key-reform-events-in-the-american-church/#comment-63 John Meche Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:22:36 +0000 http://inandfor.wordpress.com/?p=143#comment-63 This seems to me to be relevant. http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1738_Stigma_Is_a_Good_Thing_for_Bad_Acts/ If it's wrong to segregate and it should be illegal, then I think the same should be said for abortion. This seems to me to be relevant.

http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1738_Stigma_Is_a_Good_Thing_for_Bad_Acts/

If it’s wrong to segregate and it should be illegal, then I think the same should be said for abortion.

]]> By: Rob Davis http://inandfor.wordpress.com/2009/04/21/some-key-reform-events-in-the-american-church/#comment-62 Rob Davis Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:31:05 +0000 http://inandfor.wordpress.com/?p=143#comment-62 I totally agree, abortion is a very difficult one. I think some great arguments are made on both sides of the debate though (not the ones who support abortion, but think that legislation isn't the solution). I'm at a loss, honestly. I personally can't find one thinker who seems to have a balanced view on this. Everyone seems to have some agenda, or are coming from some extreme bias. Maybe that's part of it, that there aren't any clear answers on this, other than that abortion is obviously wrong - and that we have a responsibility toward all those who are affected by it. (This is also very close to my family as well, as my wife was pregnant with our first son at 16 and, though we never even considered it, could have very easily went the abortion route.) I totally agree, abortion is a very difficult one. I think some great arguments are made on both sides of the debate though (not the ones who support abortion, but think that legislation isn’t the solution). I’m at a loss, honestly. I personally can’t find one thinker who seems to have a balanced view on this. Everyone seems to have some agenda, or are coming from some extreme bias. Maybe that’s part of it, that there aren’t any clear answers on this, other than that abortion is obviously wrong – and that we have a responsibility toward all those who are affected by it.

(This is also very close to my family as well, as my wife was pregnant with our first son at 16 and, though we never even considered it, could have very easily went the abortion route.)

]]> By: John Meche http://inandfor.wordpress.com/2009/04/21/some-key-reform-events-in-the-american-church/#comment-61 John Meche Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:26:09 +0000 http://inandfor.wordpress.com/?p=143#comment-61 Great post. I struggle greatly with what to do with the religious right. I agree that the political spectrum is not where we should go to see the gospel thrive in America. Making something illegal isn't going to change someone's heart or make them love Jesus. But the part that trips me up is abortion. We can't just abandon the fight to get rid of legalized abortion in this nation, because abortion takes the lives of the innocent. As someone who was born to a teen mom, this issue was close to my heart. It moved even closer when I had my first child (and almost lost her to complications). I'm all for trying to not advance the gospel primarily through politics. But what do we do with abortion? Also note that I think the church should be the leaders in helping pregnant moms find other options. Great post. I struggle greatly with what to do with the religious right. I agree that the political spectrum is not where we should go to see the gospel thrive in America. Making something illegal isn’t going to change someone’s heart or make them love Jesus. But the part that trips me up is abortion. We can’t just abandon the fight to get rid of legalized abortion in this nation, because abortion takes the lives of the innocent. As someone who was born to a teen mom, this issue was close to my heart. It moved even closer when I had my first child (and almost lost her to complications). I’m all for trying to not advance the gospel primarily through politics. But what do we do with abortion?

Also note that I think the church should be the leaders in helping pregnant moms find other options.

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